A Plant Based Approach That Works with James Newbury & Matt Legge (EP#187)

Click The Links Below To Listen Now 

 

 

 

 

"I believe every person deserves the basic right to live a healthy and happy life. I know for you to achieve that right then you need access to some quality information and some quality ingredients so that you can take control of your health and achieve that basic right. Because you deserve the right to live a healthy, happy life." 

- Matt Legge.

 

Today Mason explores the world of plant based nutrition and performance with crossfit legend James Newbury and ATP Science co-founder and naturopath Matt Legge. The episode opens with an introduction to Phyba, James and Matt's new plant based protein powder, leading us down into a wonderful and very nuanced rabbit hole that exposes the cutting edge thinking and technology utilised to develop it.

Throughout this conversation the gents speak passionately on a vast area of topics including epigenetic's, holistic living, the importance of fresh, seasonal and local foods, how the colour green has been used to manipulate consumers in the supplement industry, the key role the alcohol and perfume industries have played in the preservation of botanicals across history, cellular adaptation and so much more!

What really shines through in this episode is the deeply heartfelt and devotional energy James and Matt carry on their mission to help people feel happy and be well. A mission that is fuelled by innovation, education, razor sharp vision and joy.

We go deep into the nuts and bolts of the body's metabolic pathways, exploring the microbiome and how to best utilise plant based nutrition to create vibrant long lasting health. 

Within the health industry exists an incredibly dense sea of quick fixes, fads, rules, restrictions and misinformation, and it is folks like James and Matt that allow us to breathe a breath of fresh air with their grounded, well researched and factual approach.
A beautiful and insightful listen for all; regardless of dietary disposition or preference.

 

"The only thing that I ever say to people if they do ask the question is I'm not telling you to take anything away from your diet. The only thing that Matt and I usually say to people is maybe just add in some more plants and you'll probably be working your way or edging yourself towards health rather than towards disease".
- James Newbury.

James, Matt and Mason Discuss

• Fibre and the importance of phytonutrient rich forms in the daily diet.
• The key role of epigenetics in health and wellness.
• The link between branch chain amino acids, diabetes and depression.
• Plant based protein, anti-nutrients and disturbances in the microbiome.
• The misinformation surrounding green foods in the supplement industry.
• Global food culture and the myths around it.
• The pivotal role alcohol and perfumery have played in the preservation of botanicals throughout history.
• The mission beyond the product and being a custodian of a company's spirit rather than of the company itself.
• Performance fatigue, lactic acid and mitochondrial biogenesis.
• Using discernment when applying ancient wisdom to a modern life.
  
  

Who Is James Newbury?
With a background in semi-professional Rugby League, James Newbury has dabbled in many sports. Finding his passion in CrossFit in 2011, James has consistently worked to earn himself a name both nationally and internationally within the CrossFit arena. Named Australia’s fittest man four times, and coming away from the 2019 World CrossFit Games with a placing of 5th, he earned himself the title of 5th fittest man on earth. Newbury is somewhat of a master at pushing himself both physically and mentally. 2020 saw a break away from the CrossFit scene due to COVID 19 implications, opening up the time and opportunity for James to develop tiny-timer, a remote-controlled, pocket-sized timer that is magnetic mounted and battery-operated. In 2020 James successfully trialed with the Australian men's bobsled team, going on to represent Australia as part of the Aussie men’s team in The 2020 European Cup.  

Who Is Matt Legge?
Matt left his successful naturopathic clinic with a vision to help more people per hour through natural product development and education.
After many years of consulting for other companies for innovation he built his own businesses to make wellness products and sports supplements starting up ATP Institute and Transdermal Industries which became the initial product range and educational content for and the inception of ATP Science.
As a co-founder of ATP Science and Head of Innovation Matt was responsible for product development, content creation and education. Creating the initial vision and the path to take a product from concept to launch. Matt has gained a reputation for creating new market categories and has also been able to predict key industry trends and apply these insights to strategic product concept development.
Matt is experienced in natural product development for human health in the form of therapeutic goods (topical and oral), functional foods and cosmetics, as well as animal health products.
Matt was the face of ATP Science Product development and education and the ATP Project podcast which is currently ranked in the top five global health (fitness & nutrition) podcasts with over 400,000 listeners per month.

Resource guide

Guests
Matt Website
James Instagram
James Website

Mentioned in this episode 
Phyba Website
Phyba Facebook
Phyba Instagram
Phyba Podcast

Tonics for Performance & Recovery
Cordy Na Na Smoothie

Relevant Podcasts
The Power Of Recovery with Crossfit Champion James Newbury (EP#65)
Mind Body Peak Performance with James Newbury (EP#106)

 

Check Out The Transcript Below:

 

Mason:

All right boys, welcome. Welcome, yeah, to the Herb Palace.

James Newbury:

Yeah, we can feel the vibe already.

Mason:

Yeah, you're in the Cave of Immortality here. In the podcast room. It's been fun. It feels like it's been a fun morning, already, chin-wagging about business and products and all those things, especially considering all of your backgrounds. It's always nice to have chats with people who've already gone through, especially yourself, mate. You've gone through the eye of the needle when it comes to...

Matt Legge:

Hell, yeah. Felt like I got spreaded out the eye of a needle.

Mason:

Any other way, then, it's not... I mean, it's interesting when you stop taking business from, like, face value of the product or anything. You know that it's emerging from some kind of pattern and you can have enough conversation, if we are good enough, which I don't think I'm there yet. You have enough story there, transparent, so everyone can follow the scent down to the source of what it's actually about. But just chatting to you guys about where you are coming from with Phyber, Phyber.

James Newbury (01:10):

Phyber.

Mason:

Is it? What's the enunciation?

James Newbury:

Yeah, Phyber. Phyber is just exactly as it sounds. It is actually kind of a funny story. We had no name for it. We kept calling this thing plant. We said, oh, plant protein, plant, call it plant. And then it was just like, what do you want to call? It's like, we'll just call it Plant. And we were just like, we'll just call it P-L-N-T. P-L-N-T's cool.

Mason:

P-L-N-T that was?

James Newbury:

Yep, that was the name of the company, that was going to be the name of the brand. It's going to be P-L-N-T, Plnt. And then we got approached by a company in America and they said, "hey, vibing your product, we would love to have it out here. I'd love to drop ship for you guys out this direction, maybe to get some things going here. But Vitamin Shop home brand is actually P-L-N-T and it's trademarked and everything." We're like, "okay, cool."

(02:02)

And then we're about 36 hours from launch. We'd already printed our bag. We already had to stock going. And then I'm literally skiing down a mountain in New Zealand at the time, and Matt, I get a text message from Matt saying we have to rebrand. And I'm just like, "we're 36 hours from launch. Surely that's not the case." I get back down and get on a phone call immediately in between a run. And he's like, "no, no, no, we have to rebrand." And I looked it up and I was like, "oh my God, we have to rebrand." And then we literally had a 90-second phone call and I said, "what can we do? What can we do?" He goes, we talk a lot about fibre. What about Phyber with a P-H and Matt just came up with it on the spot and was like, this is so much better.

Mason:

Was it a lightning bolt?

Matt Legge:

Yeah, but it wasn't just that because, I mean, one of my big, almost a pet hate as I see the same statement said all the time, that the biggest deficiency in modern society is fibre. But that's not true. I don't believe it is just fibre because it's actually fibre full of phytonutrients. It's not just the roughage that they're trying to say, we need the phytonutrients, we need the vitamins, the minerals, we need the polyphenols. It's all of the antimicrobial, the modifying compounds that we find in with the fibre, the tannins, the stuff that adds the colour, the fragrance and the smell to all of our plant-based materials.

(03:13)

And one of my pet hates is if we keep pushing down this dialogue that fibre is the deficient thing, and most people's assumption of fibre, next thing it's just going to be Bill Gates', soybeans, bleached, neutral, clean fibre that we're going to add to all of our foods and we're going to be fine. Which definitely not the case because everything we've learned about gut microbiome and everything we've learned about nature with your Yin and Yang and everything, is for every little bit of good there's a little bit of bad. So whenever we are feeding microbes and we're feeding consistently with fibre and we overfeed them, we need a little bit of slap and tickle with it. We need a little bit of the poison to come with the fibre to stop the overgrowth, to maintain balance. And that's where the big play on words with the P-H-Y spelling of fibre is to actually go start the conversation around polyphenols, phytonutrients that are built into the fibre.

Mason:

I love talking to you Matty, I love talking. [inaudible 00:04:09]

Matt Legge:

Between ski runs, between ski runs. Let's just do fibre P-H-Y. We'll get back story.

James Newbury:

The backstory was much better than my quick, dry run straight down the mountain and generally took 90 seconds. But yes, that was something that we spoke about in the lead-up to this phase of launching the product was, Matt's a big believer of the phytonutrients and all the smells and colours and fragrance coming with it. And we had spoken about phytonutrients and we came up with a couple of ideas prior to P-L-N-T, like, how do we explain the brand? And we spoke a lot about the phytonutrients and those micro-chemicals that come with it.

Matt Legge:

Phytobiotics and all that stuff.

James Newbury:

Yeah, phytobiotics, yeah.

Matt Legge:

And all that stuff we were talking about. And that's what we are constantly talking about, eating local, eating, fresh, eating within the seasons, cycling through what's available, all because that's how we get the fragrances, the smell. All of those polyphenols, all of these volatile compounds that are found in the skins, the peels, the seeds, the importance of eating fresh, eating local and eating in season, that's what it's all about. And that's why we had to get that conversation going pretty much every time we talk about supplements. Which is why now we always do these diagrams of these three rings all the time where we talk about the lifestyle. So, our favourite words like holistic health, the new science word now that it's scientifically validated is epigenetics. So, epigenetics-

Mason:

It was bullshit before and screw the thousands and thousands and thousands of years of philosophies that were built upon it.

Matt Legge:

So let's make up a new word. We'll call it epigenetic expression, but it's basically holistic because now through epigenetics, well, did you know that you have to have your lifestyle right, mixing with the right foods and the right microbiome or therefore you won't get optimal health. And we're going, "so you're saying it's a holistic system we might live in?" And they're like, " no, it's epigenetics."

Mason:

But that's greater connection than you were acknowledging previously. So perhaps there is a pattern of connection. Perhaps you guys have explored the beautiful aspect of isolation, which maybe we need to understand a little bit more at certain levels of our development. Isolation's really great, but then there's a pattern of evolution. And as you get tighter between being able to go complete connection and we can go into and make the distinction of isolation at the same times, naturally we're going to have greater intelligence as the whole. Or, no. Ours, ours. Let us pat us on the back and cheers our beacons and try not to lose your monocles as we go self-congratulating ourselves or discovering everything off the back of every wisdom tradition there's ever been.

Matt Legge:

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Because perish the thought. If someone lived a good lifestyle and they didn't actually get into a state of disease, they would never need the supplements anyway. And here we are teaching people how to be healthy for nothing.

Mason:

Can I tell you something? Talking to you guys, I mean, everyone listening, I've gone through my phases of evolution through my dogmatic stuff within gone through raw food-ism to just being longevity focused, pretty much vegan, little bit of animal products, so on and so forth, gone through the classic kickback because I've gone too far. It was about me and my psyche, and gone into comedy in order to give myself just some ease from all of those areas and people on this podcast and following my comedy. No, I'll take the piss out of the extreme carnivore and you can see what happens in veganism and carnivore. You're like, "yeah, but they're good." And the people are like, "yeah, it is good, but there's the fallout. Here's the vegan."

(07:35)

I never thought I'd ever get kind of like, ooh, I'd get excited about chatting about plant protein. And guys, this isn't some morning show. I never thought that I'd get excited about... No, I'm genuinely good because where we're going to in terms of nuance, I know that there is this gold of that movement and that plant-based movement, and I don't like being charged against it because I want to integrate the connection to that plant kingdom. And there's that connection to the wilderness of the plant kingdom. And then there's just the scientific and phytonutrient, for the masses, that we can utilise supplements, and you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And that's what the major kickback to paleo and carnivore has done because it's oxalates, because there's the anti-nutrients and people would probably consider me being in the kickback against veganism, but again, plants. And I'm like, no, I don't buy into that ship whatsoever.

(08:31)

But there's a really good conversation and it's probably the first time I've really been hearing the full nuance of the conversation. So I just want to put that there and just go into it a little bit more because it's nice for me to take charge away and take all the masks away and the titles away and just have a conversation of the landscape of food and supplementation and ensuring we meet everyone where they're at and what they need and their guts where they're at. The first thing I ever sold at Super Feast was a bag of protein. Did I tell you that?

James Newbury:

No. Was it a Sun Warrior bag?

Mason:

Yeah. I said it on your podcast. That's right. First thing ever was a brown rice protein.

James Newbury (09:08):

I've had that back in the day.

Mason:

Back in the day. And I remember going great, there's plant-based protein, it's pea, it's brown rice and whatever. And then got to my point, this stuff came out about everyone... Eventually there's a stacks on, which is great. You need to be able to have a stacks on on a phase of supplementation and proteins and herbs, and you need to be able to slowly manoeuvre. That's why having a business that isn't highly invested in and you have a passion in a cause because then you can grow in the nuance of that conversation, not shy away from. I'm going to shut up in a second, let you go for 50 minutes. I know sometimes people are like, Mason, shut up and let the guest talk and I will. It's getting somewhere. Trust me, guys.

James Newbury:

I'm absorbing so much right now.

Mason:

But then you go, all right, we're there, we're done with plant-based proteins, that's right, there was an article. And it's kind of like how that you move from one dogma and label to the other and you go, right, I'm just going to do whey versus, I'm just not going to do protein anymore. I'm not saying this is where I'm at, but in the conversations I have within that deep wellness world. Now I'm opposed to that. I'm against that kind of product rather than going like, oh, where... I'm watching proteins and just seeing the beauty of what they service in the community now and that unified intention that we both have to deliver and meet people where they'reat. Especially when you're talking about that Browns product in supporting people to not get that fallout when they're going through that-

Matt Legge:

Moving towards-

Mason:

More plants, off the white bread, flabby stuff onto vegan. I went really easily into that, and I always felt bad for the people who didn't have the guts to make that transition, especially when they're a little bit older, but it's just like, okay, gosh, maybe it's not for you. But we have to be able to go into nuance and facilitate it. You guys are doing that. And we'll get into the actual protein because some of the ingredients are off their heads that you guys did.

James Newbury:

When Matty and I got together, and we've known each other, I would say since 2016, 2017, we bonded over the first conversation we had, was talking about bicarbs. He's like, you ever experienced bicarbs? I mean, I do before every workout I do. And then we kind of went from there and then we became friends. And from that kind of situation, we ended up having a chinwag through Instagram and we were talking about eBooks and we're talking about learnings and we're talking about this and that.

(11:34)

And then Matty's like, "what are you doing at the moment?" And I was like, well, actually, I'm 32 now. I can't be living on athlete sponsorships the rest of my life. I want to do something for myself. I've always been interested in the supplement and nutrition space, and I said, "I would love to make a plant protein that isn't like the rest."We want to make something a little bit innovative. And I know Matt is probably one of the best people in the world to make something innovative, something, or look at something from a different perspective. He can look at a situation and figure out a new way to do it. And maybe the other guys weren't exactly doing it wrong, but there might be an alternative and potentially better way to do it. And Matt highlights those very, very easily. It's just the brain he has just does it very well. And I said, okay, "hit me plant protein. How can we do it better?"

Matt Legge:

That's not how it went. He hit me up and said, "can you make me a plant protein?" And I said, "yeah, easy. I like doing that. It's fun." And then I do it and I send it over, easy, within a few weeks. Here's some taste tests, here's some cogs. No worries. We'll get it made. No problem. I'll do that for you. And then he goes, "oh, if you were part of the business, would it be better?" And I went, well, "I might have something up my sleeve," because I'm obsessed with all this gut stuff. And there was some projects I was working on that I hadn't yet secured and finished off. So yeah, that's where we went through and go, yeah, let's make it better.

James Newbury:

And we kind of looked at it from the perspective as a consumer. For myself, the biggest question that I'd always get asked is like, "oh, where do you get your protein?" It's like, okay, cool. Well, I do do beans, I do tempeh, I do tofu, I do these types of things, but I also love my smoothies. And so for a lot of people it's like, okay, cool. Well, I want to live a happier, healthier lifestyle. I want to recover better. And we talk about the supplements, but in our podcast we talk about you get all of your nutrients, basically, from your diet. And if we can educate people on that, and this is the insurance policy that you put on top, and if you're asking extraordinary things of yourself, you can get extraordinary nutrition out of this, too.

Matt Legge:

Like James, an elite athlete and that sort of stuff going plant based. He needed more protein than others. Some people don't actually need to supplement protein. They eat adequate.

Mason:

That's what I was going to ask. I mean, because you guys are so decentralised in the wellness world and chatting to you, anyone and everyone, you're branding, even though it's fibre plant, plant-based supplements I don't feel-

Matt Legge:

I'm not vegan.

Mason:

No, I know. And that's a nice energy. It's probably even always been there. I don't think it's changed just because I'm perceiving it, but I imagine that kind of honest conversation about when it's not the time. And also, in terms of, you have many omnivores?

Matt Legge:

Most of our customers are, and what is a crazy thing? So, in a former life I built a brand and I was one of the main people that introduced collagen around the world. A lot of it boils down, in fact, all I've wanted was a milkshake. I've always been dairy intolerant watching people having milkshakes. All I wanted was a damned milkshake. So I went to collagen, I made collagen milkshakes, and I launched that out. And we worked with James as an athlete there, and he was vegan, and he's sitting there eventually going, mate, I'd really like my own plant protein, please, because I am a vegan and I need this and I don't want to just encourage him [inaudible 00:14:45] collagen.

Mason:

You were doing a plant, a what? An animal?

Matt Legge:

Collagen? Yeah. Cow face collagen.

Mason:

Cow face collagen?

Matt Legge:

Straight up. Just what everyone's doing at the moment, now. But at the time, we were the first ones to do it through that other brand. So now we're doing the plant-based ones for James because it's specifically, what do you want? And I just want a bloody milkshake. My children are also intolerant to dairy, so it's so easy to have a base for a smoothie and I can just fortify everything into it.

(15:10)

But in that instance, I wanted to make sure that we are working with the gut to support people transitioning onto a higher plant-based diet. So what we are encouraging is to be healthy, eat real food, mostly plants, not too much. That's the kind of basics of being a healthy and a healthy diet. So we're trying to encourage people that eating more plants is good. It's not about excluding meat. It's not about having to go do this sort of stuff, and eat fresh, healthy plants local and in season. And also just making sure that we got more of these sort of plant based stuff in our diets. What was really interesting about the body building market and my former life, working with other brands, making these proteins for muscle growth, for bodybuilders and everything like that. When they're dieting or when they're coming into comp those collagens and the whey, they're so thin, they've got no satiety, they don't fill them up. Most of these people are moving over to plant-based proteins.

Mason:

Doing the whey concentrates?

Matt Legge:

Yeah. Whey concentrate or whey protein isolate. Those things are so thin and nice tasting milkshakes. They don't fill you up. There's no bulking. So when people are trying to fill their stomach and actually have a meal, a lot of them are switching over to plant protein now just because it sits in their stomach longer and gives them more satiety. So much better for fat loss, much better for the dieting aspects and that sort of stuff as well than using a whey or a collagen.

James Newbury:

And I guess on top of that as well is when we were looking into this and Matt said, yeah, look, I can do this, piss easy, as he said, I was just like, great. Cool. So what are some highlighted points that we need to attack in the plant-based base to maybe rectify some old beliefs around plant-based protein? Probably Sun Warrior back in the day, Silk Protein, back in the day, whatever else there was. Grainy and sandy, people hated it.

Mason:

Ez Protein.

James Newbury:

Ez Protein.

Mason:

They were here. I used to order off them in Ocean Shores. And then they moved over into the Billinudgel [inaudible 00:17:03]

James Newbury:

Yeah. So we had that on the shelves in our gym as well.

Mason:

They did the big buckets?

James Newbury:

Yeah, yeah. We had that.

Mason:

So you said grainy. What the first one?

James Newbury:

Grainy, sandy. And typically the texture and the taste weren't great. Usually amino acid profile wasn't all that great. Then we were low in branched-chains. It was low in lucine.

Matt Legge:

But then we argue about that, too, because now we know a lot about gut and it's what people think they need is based on what the marketing told them they needed the whole time.

Mason:

So what did they think they needed?

Matt Legge:

branched-chain amino acid, right? Big doses of branched-chains. There's belief around branched-chain amino acids needing to be 30% of the protein because that's what's found in meat and blah, blah, blah. It's wrong. Our microbiome can make branched-chain amino acids. And if we have too much branched-chain amino acids, they actually compete for absorption. The tryptophan, they contribute to depression, they contribute to the...

Mason:

Are they pro-inflammatory at that point? Because remember, that's what came out about brown, white rice and all that. And all of a sudden it was the blanket statement that they are massively pro-inflammatory and the majority of people who, we used to be vegan and raw, or now we weren't, that's it. Yeah, we're out.

Matt Legge:

Well, they block serotonin in your brain, actually compete with sugar for absorption. So, they contribute to insulin resistance and blood sugar problems, potentially diabetics. They're finding people with insulin resistant syndromes actually have a microbiome that's capable of generating bulk branched-chain amino acids and filling up the system with branched-chain amino acids. And they actually contribute to the problems associated depression and diabetes. And then supplementing extra is totally unnecessary, trying to fill up snacking on branched-chain amino acids between meals just as a cordial, that might have a muscle sparing effect.

James Newbury:

Or during your workout too.

Matt Legge:

Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy when you think about it. That was one of the myths. The other big problem with plants as compared to other sources of protein was, you do a very simple experiment and get a plant protein, put it into your cup, add water, put it on a bench, and just see what happens.

(18:59)

That blob sits there, it's got surface tension. The water can't get in, it can't hydrate. That thing can take overnight to basically hydrate. You do the same thing with collagen or whey it just disappears. So when people drinking it's disappearing. But with plant, there's this blob that's floating around, which is contributing to the bloating and everything else. So what we did, we took that experiment to the next stage. So, we went and got all these blobs of water out there, and then what we did is to identify different forms of microbiome, different forms of digestion that could actually... We don't really know what was going to work for our product. So we just did a series of experiments creating a different profile of microbiome in each one of those blobs until we found a blob that bubbled up, a blob that digested, a blob that broke down easily and got absorbed really quickly.

Mason:

Different microbiome conditions? Do you know Jason Harrilac?

James Newbury:

No.

Mason:

He's a guy down in Tassie. He's done lot of the advocation for full microbial panel testing. And Dan Sipple has been on a lot. He's done mine. And we've talked about it a lot on the podcast in terms of just identifying the various species, if they're down or up, whether you can digest proteins or you have enough to produce these. How do you do the microbiome test in plant protein in it.

James Newbury:

In a lab.

Matt Legge:

Yeah, yeah.

Mason:

Holy shit. These guys. Everyone's going, why does Mason have a plant based protein mob on the podcast? Is this a sponsorship? No, because these guys are on. [inaudible 00:20:32]

Matt Legge:

[inaudible 00:20:32] as we're listening. For example, you're talking about inflammatory sort of stuff as well, so we go and create a blend of lactobacillus plantarum so it's capable of making the anti-inflammatory, short chain fatty acids when it breaks down our protein. We also mixed it with other things like paracaseis that are better at creating the phytase. We can digest our plant material to create more phytase so the phytase can break down the anti-nutrients that you have when I'm encouraging you to eat more plants in your diet. Not that there's anti-nutrients in the protein, but when we are encouraging you to incorporate that protein as part of a plant-based diet to be healthier and we know you're going to increase your anti-nutrients, you're going to salicylates, oxides. We wanted a solution for that, so not only are you better when you eat our protein, but you're just better in general and helps you towards transitioning to be healthier.

Mason:

Yeah, I mean with the boom of plant-based, the boom of veganism, if it doesn't have people like yourselves being the custodians and upping the intelligence and bringing a maturity of like, yeah, we're living in this crazy society and we're trying to find many solutions. So yes, there's a carnivore solution when you're sick and it's a regenerative thing.

Matt Legge:

Elimination diets.

Mason:

Elimination diets. I mean, veganism at the beginning versus 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 years in, it's going to be very different. And essentially having elders. These are new emerging lineages especially, they're all new extreme diets meeting civilization where it is. And each of them need elders or custodians or people who have experience just guiding the way and addressing these things rather than what I did. I was just like, you know what can't, it's not good for me anymore and I'm actually not committed to this lineage. I'm just going to bail. And I still had a lot of the prejudice just been like, nah, just, it's just not great. I'm just not going to recommend it. Rather than now it's like, oh great. Yeah, so anti-nutrients, let's actually talk about it.

Matt Legge:

So, I'm the like barman and I'm talking to a polar bear. That's the carnivore. I've got the grizzly bear, that's the omnivore and then the panda bear, that's the herbivore. And I can just talk to you about what else you want to eat. We can make it all work. It doesn't really matter. We're all bears. And so when you're at the end, the nutrients that people find a lot of is the phytates and the phytic acid. They bind to a lot of the minerals, the magnesiums, the calciums, the zincs and that sort of stuff. And the enzyme that breaks that down is phytase. There's also other compounds that are found in our foods in particular, citric acid.

Matt Legge:

There's also other compounds that are found in our foods in particular, citric acid. Citric acid's a very powerful way of actually deactivating those anti-nutrients, which is why citric acid's a very common ingredient that comes in through our microbiome as well.

(23:15)

Then salicylates are really common ones. Salicylates are typically found in all the skins, the peels, the roots and everything like that. So when we eat healthy and when the healthier we eat, the more salicylate compounds we're going to get, like almonds. The classic ones is you switch to almond milk, eat a lot of spinach, and that sort of stuff. All of a sudden you could go from no salicylates in your diet to eating bulk salicylates in your diet. Now our body uses an amino acid glycine to detoxify the salicylates. But normally the microbiome would deactivate that if we have a healthy microbiome.

(23:46)

When you mentioned before three days into a vegan diet compared to three months into a vegan diet, one of the major changes is actually the microbiome as the microbiome gets better at processing the anti-nutrients.

(23:59)

Same with oxalates. So oxalates coming out of the sweet potatoes and all that sort of stuff. Again, heaps of oxalates in spinach and everything. With the oxalates, they're like crystals. What would normally happen is our microbiome, 90% of the oxalates we would eat our microbiome would process and eliminate them, get rid of them. We get the wrong type of overgrowth in our bugs. Things like klebsiella or clostridium that commonly comes after antibiotics, which it's very hard to avoid antibiotics in our food chain. These things are prevalent now. They actually create oxalates.

(24:31)

Where you'd be eating a healthy diet, 90% of the oxalates you're consuming going through. If you lose those bugs that eliminate the oxalates and you acquire bugs that actually make oxalates, all of a sudden it's like 140% of your dietary load is actually being absorbed, meaning that you're going to get everything you eat plus the stuff the bugs are making. Then it goes into your body.

(24:51)

When you get oxalates into your body, the way they process it through your kidneys. And that's how we get kidney stones and that sort of stuff. But in the bowel, the body's trying to get rid of the oxalates. We get inflammatory bowel disorders, irritable bowel syndromes, and this is all from eating a healthy diet. This is why when working as a naturopath for 25 years, and I try to transfer people over to one way of eating to another one. All of a sudden they're getting actual plant compounds. They're coming in going, "This is ripping me to bits. I'm allergic to those foods."

(25:17)

You go, "No, you're intolerant temporarily as we transfer over." But the big point is we're killing off all the bad bugs that aren't serving you, and we're feeding the good bugs and we're going to change your microbiome and you'll be healthier for it in the meantime.

(25:29)

But then there's in nature, we used to eat a lot of dirt and all that sort of stuff as well. Now we're finding the dirt compounds bind to the oxalates and strip them out so you don't even absorb them. And having dirty food and all that sort of stuff might have been a big part of it. The bugs that are found in the dirt that's on the food when we eat naturally are also the bugs that help to process out these crystals so we don't absorb them

Mason:

Yeah. We've had Susan Weed on the podcast recommend, just be like, "You know what? Screw all your probiotics. Just go and eat a spoonful of dirt every now and then."

Matt Legge:

Yeah.

James Newbury:

Well actually, leading on from that, we have something cool that's coming that is-

Matt Legge:

Dirty.

James Newbury:... dirty. It's kind of brown and dirty and it's pretty-

Matt Legge:

That's super browns.

James Newbury:

Super browns.

Matt Legge:

Yeah.

James Newbury:

It's actually probably your first we've actually-

Mason:

Welcome to the XXX late night supplement talk with the boys when things get a little blue.

Matt Legge:

Brown chicka brown cow.

Mason:

Things are getting dirty XXX Supplement Hour. Brown is, I mean we were talking about it and I was laughing how much it reminded me of one of my favourite skits ever by Auntie Donna. But the greens phenomenon, I mean, it's funny bonding with a plant-based company over, I love green. I absolutely love green, but just the annoyance of the prevalence and the importance put on a green complex.

James Newbury:

Green is a healthy colour that we-

Matt Legge:

The bias of it. Do we have to compromise our formulation to make sure it ends up green because we've decided to call it green because it wants to be sold under a tab that says green?

Mason:

Everything as above, so below. Is green like the woke culture that is trying to project itself onto everyone within the supplement world right now?

Matt Legge:

Well, I think it's the colour.

James Newbury: Pretty well.

Matt Legge:

It's definitely the colour that they attribute to anything apparently alternative.

Mason:

Yeah. Well that's what we're talking about, that I was talking a little bit about.

Matt Legge:

Well, you're red, blue or green, aren't you?

Mason:

Yeah, well, that's it, isn't it? Oh God, you've just gave me shivers around like, "Ah, I feel imprisoned within my own political system." I'm sure this is how it's meant to work. We're talking about the integral model of business and the colours of those psychological levels of thinking and spectrum. And you go from that orange hierarchy, beautiful, integrate that to the green, that flat structure, which is just, there's no rules, there's no walls, there's no principles. It's a free for all. Anyone can be like, "It's all consensus." But if enough people over here get agitated, then they just run over and just take over everything. There's no barriers and no respect for boundaries. That's green. And then you go to the teal. You crack out of that and you go to multiple hierarchies. This is where, I mean I love it because to be honest, I'm stuck. I have been stuck in just watching people go get stuck in that carnivore meet paleo world or in the vegan world. Because they just represent such beautiful, like oppositeYinand Yang.

(28:25)

And I can imagine sitting talking to you now, I've talked to many friends who understand the microbiome. You hear people go, "Oh, I'm just like the plants." And they hold on to a dogma like, "Those oxalates, they're bad." And listening to you go into the nuance of it going, wow, this is your religion. You are throwing down a fact that is absolutely reductionist. And vegans do the same thing with certain things like the red meat causes cancer. It's just like you can't throw statements around like that.

Matt Legge:

Yeah, exactly. Or acid. Acid and base like all acidic acidity is going to kill us all.

Mason:

My god, alkaline. "This doesn't grow in an alkaline environment."

Matt Legge:

Yeah, exactly.

Mason:

What kind of statement is that?

Matt Legge:

Yeah, what kind of a body isn't compartmentalised? Our stomach will just be a big tumour if everything grows in acid. And then things can't live in alkaline. Well, it's like, "Oh my gosh, you should see the stuff that happens in the lower bowel," which is significantly alkaline compared to the stomach. It's like-

Mason:

Are you saying alkaline water is liquid tumour?

Matt Legge:

Well it ain't no liquid antidote. I can tell you that.

Mason:

That's true. Welcome back to the XXX Scallywag Hour where the scallywags of the supplement industry come together to have some chats.

Matt Legge:

But it's true about the greens because this obsession with greens means that people don't formulate their products properly just in case it changes the colour. Or they have to add colouring at the end to give the visual representation of green. And then it bugs me because we've all been told to eat a healthy diet, you're going to get all your different colours. We want variety and everything like that, and we're going to get reds, yellows, greens, purples. There's not one food that should just be that one colour that's healthy.

(30:16)

Even a food that is available green, it's also available in other colours. And we're always told the other colours are actually healthier when they're on our plates. You know what I mean? And then all of a sudden these people are obsessed. And the pet hate that I have is the cheapest and easiest ingredient to use is something like spirulina just to make it green where we can bulk it up with spirulina. And they still use the old data about spirulina being a good source of vitamin B12 because they discovered cobalamines in it a hundred years ago. But then they worked out just in recent times when the microscopes got better, that it's the wrong form of cobalamine. It's not the right B12.

Mason:

Not spirulina?

Matt (30:50):

Yeah. Spirulina, this blue green algae that's told to be avoided in all other instances-

Mason:

Oh my God.

Matt (30:55):

... was a great source of B12 for vegans until they found out it's not B12.

Mason:

It's a false profit.

Matt Legge:

It blocks B12 absorption and creates a B12 deficiency.

Mason:

Oh, snap!

Matt Legge:

But you can't get that story out. What about the spinach story with Popeye? Did you ever hear about that?

Mason:

I don't-

Matt Legge:

The decimal point was in the wrong spot.

Mason:

I just used ... No.

Matt Legge:

Popeye was that big campaign, eat spinach because we can't afford meat during the war.

Mason:

I just saw a meme about it the other day. How funny is it that we bought that to get strong you had to eat a can of spinach?

Matt Legge:

But what happened, there was a German scientist that was almost 50 years earlier printed or published a paper saying this much iron in spinach and this is why spinach is good. 50 years later, or some, I'm not sure about the dates to be honest, but they went on later when they were doing that campaign to try to get everyone healthy through England after the wars and everything to eat the spinach. And they went and quoted his science and it came back that his science was wrong. I had the decimal point. So where they said 150 milligrammes per a hundred grammes or something like that, it was supposed to be 1.5. But the lie had already gone around the world and now they can't fix it. It's like spinach is still a good source of iron if you ask anyone, because we can't be bothered to correct the story.

Mason:

Popeye didn't even deserve to end up with Ursula that hottie.

Matt (32:10):

No.

Mason:

She should have been with actually that massive guy that had arms in proportion to his body.

James Newbury:

What was his name? I can't remember now.

Matt (32:18):

I don't remember, but I can remember the burgers he used to eat because they're still looking for those.

Mason:

He was the winner.

Matt Legge:

Yes.

James Newbury:

Yes.

Mason:

He's the guy hitting the bag.

Matt Legge:

He was actually buff.

Mason:

That is, see, I guess what we're talking to is, oh, I mean there's so much there. Everyone knows and everyone can go back into their history when you've heard a fact and you're in that space of gathering evidence to justify where you're at and make yourself feel protected. You're avoiding dominance from other people who are questioning your diet at the time. Which is maybe just the fact that you don't have the energy, you don't know what you're doing. You just trust that you need to go and eat more plants or eat more meat or whatsoever.

(32:56)

I came from the superfood world. People used to call me bloody Australian David Wolf because I was just so into these superfoods and that high energy, and I really valued that best day ever energy. I was just really about that visionary, idealistic impact. That's what everyone used to say. But I used to have the spirulina at my market store back in the day just as the herbs were coming in. And I'd have vegans coming because you could trust me, because I was pretty much vegan doing colostrums and bee products and all that kind of stuff, little deer antler.

(33:24)

And they'd say, "Look, I'm so deficient. I need B12. Can I buy some spirulina?" And I used to refuse them. And I used to say at the Frenchs Forest markets, and there was a dirty old pub next to us. And I was like, "Please, you have to go into that pub and get a dirty steak and a schooner of new because it's the only thing that's going to break you out of this because you are not well." You are not going to get what you need from this little tin of Synergy spirulina or whatever it is, even though it's a good product. And I could just sense it. It became a doctrine. It became a religious doctrine that you can't scrutinise it anymore because this is the law and this is fact. And oh, lo and behold there was nuance.

Matt Legge:

Yeah. When you said earlier that this formulating is like our religion, I was actually going to say it is our religion and this one you're allowed to question everything. And in fact, we're encouraged to question everything. It's not called blasphemy.

Mason:

It's like real science and real religion are. Yeah.

Matt Legge:

You'd be like that too. Everything I hear bugs me. I've got kids now. And so I go through, I read that Humpty Dumpty to them. And then I'm reading it and I realise never in here do they mention it's an egg. There's a picture, but well, who said Humpty Dumpty was an egg? There's no mention of the egg.

(34:38)

And then we're doing that bingo. And bingo was his name-o. And I'm straight up to the kids going, "Is it the farmer or is it the dog? Which one's bingo?" And then when I start questioning these things, I just have this annoying nature of absolutely questioning everything. And then people think I'm just being a smart ass half the time, but generally I'm really curious about what the hell's happening. Yeah, little things like that. And that's why I'm obsessed with herbal medicine and culture.

(35:02)

I think we spoke previously about the fact that there was no tomatoes in Italy. If anyone you ask, "Tell us about food culture in Italy, tell us about traditional medicine that comes from food culture through the Mediterranean." And they'll mention tomato. Well, there was no tomato there until they Spanish come back from South America. There was no chilli in India. But if you were to think Ayurvedic medicine, you'd assume there'd be some aspects of chilli running through that traditionally, but there isn't. There's peppers, there's all that other stuff, but the chili's in their food culture come later. Everything we think we know, but we can question everything.

Mason:

Oh, it's like-

Matt Legge:

It's very strange.

Mason :

The New Zealand chief, I think he was a vegetarian chief actually. And he went on that pilgrimage over to South America, North America and Hawaii and brought back several things including kumara and I think chickens when they got there. And they're like, "Oh, sweet potato? No." That wasn't native. But I think I talked to you about it but-

Matt (35:56):

Chinese loganberry. That's the kiwi fruit.

Mason:

Logan?

Matt (36:01):

No, no. Chinese. What is the-

Mason:

Longenberry is the dragon eye. So it kind of comes, it goes on a tree. It's similar to a Lychee.

Matt (36:07):

Yeah. But what is the kiwi fruit to Chinese? It comes from China.

James Newbury:

Yeah, that's-

Mason:

I haven't gone enough into that one. I got to look up this guy. That's one of those stories, I haven't looked at it for ages, but he came back with several foods. Just came back an absolute god.

James Newbury:

I bet.

Mason:

Bringing back like sweet potato to these warrior tribes. But I spoke to you about it. No, I don't think I spoke to you about it, about the book called The Drunk Botanist. And it tracks every, because every ingredient has ever exists is used in drinks in Cota. And one of the only reasons that a lot of species have survived is because when they were going around colonising and destroying ecosystems and gardens, they would save those that had aromas to go take back to the gin gardens in the UK and everywhere else in the world. And they'd have gin gardens in all through India.

(36:56)

And that's literally plants and herbs that would've been extinct and aromatics that would've been extinct. They're not because they've kept them there. Even though it was colonialism that did it, at least alcohol's got our back. But that book tracks every ingredients like banana. Here's the backstory, where it came from.

Matt Legge:

Wow.

Mason:

And here's alcohols and mixology's contribution to why it's come in and exploded.

Matt Legge:

That is awesome.

James Newbury:

Interesting.

Mason:

And food as well.

James Newbury:

Interesting.

Matt Legge:

And perfume and all that sort of stuff. There was a massive thing with most of our herbs and spices preserved through perfumery.

Mason:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing.

James Newbury:

That's super cool.

Matt Legge:

That's fascinating isn't it?

James Newbury:

That's fascinating.

Mason:

I mean that we took it, maybe we needed that little break, but there was something I wanted to talk about. I think it was going to be a good question. There must be something because in terms of inviting, scrutinizism, scrutiny? Scrutinizism. We've talked, I think I like businesses when I can see there's too much of a unique idea.

(37:58)

One of my team members have said recently, because SuperFeast is such an unique idea. And the thing about it choosing me to be its primary steward is if something comes in and becomes too thick around it and it actually doesn't match the way that personality of this muse and this business wants to express itself naturally. And that might mean exploring some area and then retracting back and realising that's not it. I feel it because I am the number one custodian. I've felt now the difference between an enmeshment which I didn't have. Dealt with my stuff and now I can just feel my role in stewarding. I feel it and I know how to thrash on behalf of the business and then sometimes not thrash and just make calculated decisions to move in that direction.

(38:41)

And I feel that with you. And I've already talked about let my people go surfing and I was like if you like that, read the ... I've got to give it to you. I'm reinventing organisation. The Holacracy books, Buckminster Fuller's work, the Synergistic Enterprises. You can look at synergisticworld.world. She's up in Tweed teaching these kinds of courses.

(39:01)

All these areas. And one of the things that about those organisations and more and more and more, are just like act and adjust and act and adjust. And people don't know how to adjust because people are boring and they like monotony. And so the monotonous part comes when you create a product and you lock down your FAQs and your justifications and you've gathered all your data of why we're awesome and don't question us. We don't have the space or time for this.

Matt Legge:

We have policies.

Mason:

We've got policies, and I'm a busy business owner now and I don't have time to answer these questions that everyone's constantly like, "Why don't you have? What about when this happens with your proteins? And what about plant based protein?" And I know you and hearing you, that's what excites me.

(39:41)

I leaned into all the scrutiny from acupuncturists and I loved it. We had the head of the acupuncturists association email asking. We're like, "Oh God, here's our numbers and here's a big explanation." Tahnee was amazing.

(39:54)

Likewise, I've jumped on the phone with many of them. Some of them triggered so angry that I would dare give Chinese herbs straight to the people when they've been taught. They don't actually think they own it, but they've been taught that it's really dangerous and you need a practitioner, which is of course true in many instances. And in other instances it's very dangerous not to give people access to herbs. And the only way I've got so much conviction now is that I face that fear that, "Oh my God, what if they're right? What if I am being irresponsible here? What if haven't formulated that formula perfectly and they notice the energies out?"

(40:34)

And it's helped me grow in and adjust and help adjust the business into what it is now into place where we can have real dynamic, spongy, organic. An ecosystem that can go back and forth and it's not rigid like, "Get out of here. Don't ask me that question!"

(40:50)

Where are you guys at now? Where's the thing that's like for there's perhaps some good questioning? Or maybe that's a source of criticism? Or I know when I get on a panel with a carnivore person that will come up and you are just musing in there.

James Newbury:

Well, I think that the good thing about Matt and I, we're quite pliable. We're happy to work with what we've got. We're happy to keep an open mind. And I think the best thing that we do for us as a team is that we're really open to finding common ground with what people are projecting towards us.

(41:26)

Put it this way. If I was to jump onto a podcast with a carnivore who was very outspokenly carnivore, my first step in that conversation would be not to fight against his views, beliefs. It'd be to find some common ground first. Where do we align ourselves? And that's how you best get the end result that you're looking for. For me, jumping onto a podcast, it would be like, "Okay, well what do we both believe in? Okay, we both believe getting out and getting some sunlight, getting into nature is very, very good." Or we both believe that having some social time with family is very, very good. That's how we get to the end goal.

(42:00)

And for me, especially through my socials, I'm never outspoken about being vegan and never tell people this is the only way. The only thing that I ever say to people if they do ask the question is I'm not telling you to take anything away from your diet. The only thing that Matt and I usually say to people is maybe just add in some more plants and you'll probably be working your way or edging yourself towards health rather than towards disease. And that's pretty much it. We're quite pliable in that respect.

(42:24)

And for us, we've got a plant protein on the market at the moment with some other things in the works. But what Matt said to me that's always stuck with me was eating with the seasons and eating as much diversity as possible is just going to give you a broader spectrum of a diverse gut microbiome. Have a broad spectrum of plants on the plate. And in doing so, we've created a really great plant protein that we absolutely love and adore, but we know that it's not end game. We know that we could create a plant protein like this, and this could be our summer plant protein that has a set of probiotics and postbiotics and prebiotics that we could utilise to get the best result for this phase of the year.

(43:06)

And we could also create a winter version of something similar that has a whole nother universe and diversity sitting within that that you could alternate between to find that balance. And that's where we're pliable. We know that everything we create probably has a 2.0 and a 3.0 and a 4.0. And what is great right now might not be that great in 12 months time and it might come back in four years time. That's how we operate at the moment.

Mason:

I think that's a great tension to be addressing. You are the one bringing it up rather than sitting back and waiting for the market to bring it up. You address it first.

James Newbury:

Oh, well, that's Matt-

Matt Legge:

Yeah. It creates itself. It'll build its own entity is the other point. The thing is, we don't don't really know what it is. Because like you're saying with custodians that you're just the dude that's been selected by whatever source to do, SuperFeast. We don't really know what our role is here and it will evolve. And as we acquire our crew and we build our tribe and they will tell us what they need and what's missing, then we'll make those things.

(44:05)

We also believe that you do you. And look, my belief and I've run through everything, I've wrote this down a thousand times, is I believe every person deserves the basic right to live a healthy and happy life. I know for you to achieve that right then you need access to some quality information and some quality ingredients so that you can take control of your health and achieve that basic right. Because you deserve the right to live a healthy, happy life.

(44:31)

My pet hate is that someone else that might be born in the same place as us around the same time as us in a different hierarchy or a different system, has the ability to make rules and tell us what we can and can't do with what nature's provided. That is one of my absolute pet hates because I believe everyone deserves the right to utilise what nature's provided to achieve health and happiness. And that's our whole role.

(44:52)

We let these people come in, they tell us what's going wrong, where life's not right. And then we help to provide solutions through nature, but give them access to it and also give them access to the information. Unbiased, useful information that they can use to actually achieve health and happiness. None of that should be revolved around selling a product. None of that should be held for ransom behind a consultation.

(45:14)

Which is why as a naturopath for 25 years, I'm making naturopathic formulations and making them available along with the information to the people that need it, including practitioners. If you want to be a practitioner and be in the middle where you hold the people's hands, you answer the stupid question committee. You see these people once a week and guide them through the process. I will give you the information.

(45:35)

But you have to trust me. When I also provide that information and those products directly to the people, it's synergy. That's where one plus one is three. This is where we get towards health and wellness because they're invested into it. They're doing that extra research, they're doing that reading. They're taking ownership of their own health. They're understanding why things are working. They're understanding the weaknesses in their lifestyle and the picture that's stopping them from achieving optimal health or optimal epigenetic expression, which is the new technical word.

Mason:

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Legge:

Epigenetic expression, which is the new technical word. So you see what I mean? Our role there, listen to the people, provide what they want, and the company will evolve to be those tools that they do and those information, based on our people that have decided, we are there people to provide them the health solution. Which is why it's fine to have so many different brands out there running so many different aspects, running for different types of people with totally different ethos, because we're all out there for a reason. Like we were saying before, no one owns the ideas. The ideas are going to pop up when they're due, they're going to happen. So you may as well put yourself into position to help people through those ideas, and then you'll be selected with one of those wicked ideas.

Mason:

Hell yeah. I always take it back. The Tao always just helps me capture these ideas. Bridge between Heaven and Earth is humans. There's the realm of humans that we live in, it is the pivot point right now and where having whatever non-Christian heaven, the infinite, it starts just with pure love or nothing and all that. And then the consumerism of this earth, those shadow areas, and there's the bridging. And it's going to bridge down, and we are not doing the bridges ourselves I guess. So there'll be the bridge, but the custodians of that process of bridging Heaven and Earth. And I like it because that's the same when people come to me like, "Oh yeah, so why did you get into mushrooms?" I'm like, "I didn't get into mushrooms. Mushrooms just jumped in, it's not about mushrooms." And it's the same where you go like, "You guys have got such a cute protein company," and then you hear what you just said, which is awesome because you do have a great protein company and we don't have enough space and time to go into that download of the newer, but it's always so nice.

(47:52)

I go, and I know people go, "So tell me about your company." They're like, "Oh, it's just protein, and the proteins this and that, and the mission is to get people onto protein to help them." And I'm like, "Cool, and what's behind there?" Nothing. And I'm like, "Oh, I'm sure there is but you guys are-

Matt Legge:

James was the first dude and he wanted a protein, so we made it what he wanted.

James Newbury:

And then we both looked at where we're at and we both said, "okay, what do we actually we want to achieve here?" And it's like, "well I want this to be fun. I want excitement in my life. I want it to be fun. I want experience. I want to go along a journey." It wasn't like, "I want to load everybody up with 22 grammes of protein every time they sit down and have a protein shake." That wasn't the thing. The thing was I wanted to get to know Matt better, I wanted to create an experience and everything I'll do for the experience. And we both agree that we're doing this thing, this life thing, and it has to be exciting, and it has to be fun, and it has to be joyful, and has to bring a smile to our face. And if we can do that, hopefully we can create this really contagious culture that generates that and pushes that out to the masses as well, and it brings a smile to other people's face at the same time.

(48:59)

And if we're doing that and also providing the great knowledge that Matt has and some of the sporting experience that I have, and we combine the two together, and we push it out to people, hopefully, they become Phyba vibers at the same time and we can all be doing this thing, kick it to me style, playing, going back to the roots that make us feel alive and happy, whilst also educating at the same time and hopefully putting people on a path that makes them a little bit more joyful.

Mason:

You said joy a couple of times a question we were talking about how you've got to have your finger on the pulse on many things, and different ideas are going to have a different constitution. And just because it's got a constitution of say, there's lots of businesses out there, their constitution says profit is the only thing that you can feel that idea really wants to work on, doesn't mean it doesn't have all the other areas of impact, or so on and so forth. I know a super piece, if I couldn't lead with profit, but I could start a business right now and a different idea that could, it's not about the...

(49:59)

For you, is there a particular north star? You said joy a couple of times, which I think is way more tangible in terms of being an environment, or creating the epigenetic conditions, where whatever joy is, it probably could be explored. But is there a particular north star that's a pivot point, that is the constitution of the business that is if we went off course of getting that outcome, or that's the outcome, at least we know it's the one KPI that if we're moving, even if it's in a subjective one to other people, that we know we're on the right track.

James Newbury:

That's a tough-

Matt Legge:

Love and light.

James Newbury:

Yeah.

Matt Legge:

It's a weird one because in my experience, like I said, naturopath about 25 years. I had another brand that was quite successful, did that for a decade. My highlights of the brand, so when I used to be a naturopath, I had to get out of the clinic because one person an hour or something like that, if they listened to I might be able to help. Through providing my education and systems to multiple people not being isolated to only the people that could afford my consultation, I could help more people per hour. Now what was some of my highlights in my whole career? One of the biggest highlights actually is I used to have a lot of bad, we were bodybuilding products and that was for usually tough guys. Sales reps were all tattoo guys or big Muay Thai fighter guys and just fit dudes. But they were all angry, tough, real tough guys. It was kind of weird.

(51:21)

But these guys are coming up to me after trade shows like teary and thanking me. They've never thought in their life that they'd be in an opportunity where they're standing in a trade show where a random stranger will come up and tell them how that changed their life. Come through and go, "man, I had these problems for years. A list of stuff from your information, your education, using your product, my life is different, my life's better." When I get these guys coming up, we used to do a brief at the end of that trade show. Not one of those briefs, well not to me anyway, involved numbers and metrics. We went around the thing sharing testimonials, what stories did you get today? Whose lives did you change? What was the story? What was her name? How old was she? What was her kids? And these are the stories, and I'm talking about tough guys that were sitting there thanking me.

(52:09)

I never ever thought I'd be in a position where people would be coming up and thanking me for changing their lives. And I thank you for allowing me to be into those metrics of changing someone's life. When you look at how many products you're selling per hour compared to how many people I could have helped in a clinic per hour, and all of a sudden my other business, we were doing, well I think at one stage sharing opening hours, we were selling two products every minute or something. So we're doing like 120 products were sold per hour in the same time that I could have been seeing one person per hour in a clinic. And so I'm sitting there going, "I'm getting the leverage, I'm achieving goals, helping more and more people in the process change in the world and initiating a thought change, initiating it."

(52:52)

And that's why we talk about, the contagious culture. So after I met James and stuff like that, there's little things that I do different every day now because after meeting James, that's how contagious the culture is. Every time I get out of a car or something, James taught me this, every time he gets out of a car, you watch him. And it's a funny thing too because you'll just look at it starts scouting around here, Here I'm thinking he's looking for danger something. No, he's finding rubbish on the ground. And he'll always pick up, every time we get out of the car and go somewhere, collect a piece of rubbish and put it in a bin. Now I do that, and now my kids do that.

(53:25)

And it's funny with my family now as we get out of the car, they're all looking around, we almost race to see who can pick up the rubbish and throw it into the bin. And that creates that ground swell of a movement. So those little cultures, those belief systems and that ability to, when I said love and light is the biggest metric because if we can actually be successful, what's the point of being successful if you're miserable? You need to be healthy, happy and be improving every day.

James Newbury:

And I take it from that standpoint too, I know what it's like to be bogged down with a lot of pressure and feeling like, "okay, am I really truly fired up to jump out of bed today?" And some days I'm absolutely not, but in the last six months of doing Pybre, fricking kicking and screaming to get out of bed, to let's get after it at 4 30 in the morning, I love that. And I like that feeling, and I feel great for it and I just want other people to feel that vibe too, just ready to rock and roll and get after it and do what they want to do. Basically be able to live life on their terms and not have to sacrifice any of what we have to offer in nature, whether it's visiting a new country, trying a new skill, doing a new thing, and not be able to do it because they have been either taught a way to do something that's now impacted the way that their body functions or the way that their mind functions, or their limiting beliefs.

(54:46)

Whatever they may be, if we can break down some of those barriers for them, whether it's just talking on the podcast, shaking a hand at a trade show, doing a cool feat and putting it through social so they can see, hey, you can maybe be plant based and then go do an amazing race somewhere, or you can go visit this place or go surf this wave. You do have the ability to do it and if we can help him do that, then fricking fantastic.

Matt Legge:

He shows him too, he did a strong man one day and probably won it, I think he won it. And then he went and did a full marathon the next day, and won that too or some stupid thing.

James Newbury:

But it's just vibing. It's all about the vibe. Always chasing the vibe. It's trying to figure out what the vibe is that you like, chase it down and just show people that if you do really want to do it, you've got all the ability to do it. And we're just putting some things in play that number one, we like to use these products as well. The product at the end of the day is the last thing we typically talk, we never talk about it on the podcast, but the products are also something that it's this cool little potion that we're just generating, but the potion is just one of the pieces of the puzzle of products. The other part is the culture and the way we like to live our life and we just want to be happy and joyful.

Matt Legge:

And that feeling. We talked about it. I asked James, I said, "before a race or before an event, do you ever get that feeling that you're just going to win? You kind of know that you're going to win, but you get that feeling that it's going to win? And you get that excited feeling, you don't want to say it but you kind of know it?"

James Newbury:

Nah, you smile. I've been there a hundred-

Matt Legge:

And that feeling, and I even sometimes, I used to be really lucky at the pub, I used to win the meat trays all the time and I used to know when I was about to call up my number for the meat tray. And I'll be sitting there going, "I'm about to win this, and you don't have to worry about this."

Mason:

I can just see the ink on the skin of the belt, on the rack.

Matt Legge:

And so very similar to James's story about doing ultra-marathons and stuff, where he feels like about to win, me winning, but that feeling.

Mason:

Funnily, it is.

Matt Legge:

Yeah, it's the same frequency, it's the same feeling and when we got it, I said, "I'm feeling it now." When I think about Phyba, when I think about everything we're doing, that's the feeling I've got. Not the feeling that we're going to win, it's that I've got a really good feeling that this is great, we're on the right track, it's about to happen. This is our time, I'm in the now and it's happening.

Mason:

Well synergy, you already mentioned synergy. And I know it's lame when you see that word get used in what's a strict orange hierarchical structure. Not that hierarchical structures I think are bad in any way, actually love them in certain contexts, but them using synergy is just ironic. But that's win-win. That's it. And it takes just a little bit of a... You talking about that being a metric, like having that guy, I don't know what to call it because sometimes it's a spontaneous transformation, sometimes it's a surprise distinction that someone gets or removing of a blockage or giving them charge to admit to a passion that takes them away from where they currently are or to double down where they are, it's a surprise. And then there's a lot of people who are conscientiously engaging with the product and already on that journey and getting the strength to go down further.

(57:54)

Whatever that impact is, however you want to describe it, I think, that's where I'm chatting to you guys about business, I'm like, the source ideas, these musers are from the same planet because it's the similar constitution. That's the only thing that matters to me as a direct north star. And I adjust around that no matter how much, as I said, now at a particular stage in my life, I'm really thinking about asset portfolio, ensuring my family starts building those foundations. I'm really looking at profit and rollover and balance sheets, but regardless of how much I'm into it, SuperFeast won't ever, ever have that as it's North star. It can't. It finds a sweet spot. Same in Chinese medicine quite often everyone has a constitution based in a organ.

James Newbury:

It's rare, it's rare to see someone as a CEO separate the two, and see that this is SuperFeast and this is me and yes, we're working together synergistically, but we both might have a slightly different end goal purpose here or it's along the same lines but quite not the same. Doesn't have to be the same in essence.

Mason:

Well if I had a child and I was saying to my son, "you have to start your own businesses. I don't like people that go to university." I'm a really, really irresponsible parent if I'm doing that, rather than give it the, I know my principles that will create a boundary that won't suppress the spirit, but keep it safe and protect it, I need to get tactile, in that I don't know it, I'm discovering it and doing the best I can verse the difference of when I start really oppressing and projecting what I want onto. And I have to be engaged, I can't set and forget. And a CEO can't sit and forget that relationship. But you can in a hierarchy because that's the structure, and that's why quite often they don't like working with such sensitive musers or ideas, they like working with ones that are really realised.

(59:57)

So they can have a corporation, they can have a corpse as a muse, as we were talking about, they can have a Weekend At Bernie's and pick it up and be like, "look I'm being sustainable because I'm contributing to this set up, WEF." They go off the shelf model. And that's fine. That's a proven type of constitution, which might be the norm, but you need to understand there's very different constitutions that exist. That's why I hate the off-the-shelf titles. I will use it, it's kind of like what the world agrees this role is. But the actual task of what that CEO role in SuperFeast is versus someone who is a CEO who is there to ensure that we are breaking into new markets to ensure that systems have been followed, it's very, very different energy and it's an affront to people that you are told there's only one way and when you get to a particular point of your business, it's like, "it's time to grow up," and just start getting managers and getting people from other organisations.

(01:01:07)

And sometimes it's right, but you have to knock the muse on the head because you don't get it anymore, that impact doesn't make sense. We're in a profit world here and we're growing up distribution deals. And it's like doing that to a child. You need to ceremonially say to the muse, "hey, I've gone as far as I'm willing to go as your steward, and I need you to make a choice of whether you're going to stay, but I'm moving on." You actually have to go through that if you start in that space and you can't separate your needs versus the business needs. So yeah, when I talk to you guys and hear you today say that, and that's where you guys go when you talk about impact, of course the products are important as well. I also like just being a mushroom company sometimes to certain people, but that's where you go to. Those moments. So if you're creating those moments, you can optimise your leads.

(01:02:01)

What does a warm and hot lead mean? It means someone who's there and is closer to being a suitable person for you to contribute to having those moments, they're willing, so on and so forth. It's really sensible if you're the kinds of people we are so, good on you. Not the easy road.

James Newbury:

That's all right. It's a joyful and happy road for us.

Matt Legge:

It's a road.

James Newbury:

It's a road, well that's what we talk about a lot. Doesn't have to be good or bad.

Matt Legge:

Yeah, no good news or bad news, just news.

Mason:

Yeah, I mean that's the pursuit of consistent fun and-

Matt Legge:

It's good. It's all good.

Mason:

No, it is definitely not all good. It's hard and it's harrowing. It's a hero's journey. It drags you through the mud and it's like, "what is that? Is that good or bad? No, whatever. Is what it is."

Matt Legge:

We may not focus it on finances, but we specifically can't run a business without it.

Mason:

Yeah, exactly.

Matt Legge:

It becomes one of those things where everyone's wanting you to go back and look at the numbers because you've got bills to pay.

Mason:

So you got to have a finger on the pulse. It's like people who think just being connected to their vision in the infinite is going to sort out their bone health. And you can have trust in that for so long, but then it becomes stupid and excessive, and it's not a bad idea if you are right up there to have say, a practitioner to go and do your microbial and do your vitals, just so you can get that feedback, you get your finger on the pulse. Make it a system. We do that constantly just so I don't get blindsided. Like the balance sheet's amazing. The balance sheet's the Jing of the business.

James Newbury:

Yeah.

Mason:

And it tells you whether the way that you are operating is a structure that's finding sweet spots. You can go basic principles and start there, but if you let it find, what's Phyba sweet spot of a balance sheet? All we know is, it can't be getting depleted and it makes sense in a cultivation.

(01:03:48)

If we're localised in the way we're doing business, then a cultivation is what we're looking for. So financially that's going to look like assets, it's going to look like having a war chest just in case anything happens. Just like in real life, we don't want to be so depleted that all of a sudden someone dies, you lose your business, catastrophe happens, that you are fragile and you get knocked over by the world. Yeah, likewise the processes that hold how things move around in your business, that's the Jing.

James Newbury (01:04:18):

Treating the business how you treat yourself.

Mason:

Have some respect.

Matt Legge:

And you can't help anyone if you don't exist. So you've got to do what you got to do to stay available.

Mason:

Yeah, I mean I can't tell you how much shame I had around even looking at asset. I don't know, it all me, it took me years to really-

James Newbury:

Wow, overcome, yeah.

Mason:

Well yeah, integrate it, figure out where it was coming from, what it was, and it didn't matter how logically I looked at it like, "no, this is a good business." It doesn't, like why I'm contributing. It was just something that was repulsive and in the beginning you go, "right, that my business isn't about that." You're like, no, no, no. If you want this role, then you need to go and sort your shit out so you can actually do it properly.

Matt Legge:

That naturopath training too, money was a dirty word. That's what big pharma focuses on. We naturopaths, we focus on holistic health and everything. So they don't teach you anything, and then most naturopaths don't ever succeed enough in business to be able to help anyone. So you have to focus on those things, or you just simply don't exist.

Mason:

Its so ironic that you're there telling people as an entity and being responsible for your physical entity. You've got to invest in your microbiome. It's your ultimate insurance policy.

Matt (01:05:33):

Yep.

Mason:

Well, how's your clinic's insurance?

Matt Legge:

Yeah, yeah.

Mason:

Is that optimised, as above, so below?

Matt Legge:

Yeah, exactly.

Mason:

I love watching naturopaths, well some of them either go to the Jing realm, do some slight structuring, but others need to say they've got that or down pat, and they not connected to that Shen, that spirit of why they're doing it, which might not be the north star. The north star might be something really practical, but nonetheless you need all the organs, all the treasures active. And then all of a sudden, bang, the results just pour forward because as above, so below.

Matt Legge:

Yep.

Mason:

Look, I just wanted, because I'm like you, I do three-hour talks in 15 minutes. I'm like, "oh my god, I haven't even spoken about a product yet."

James Newbury:

No, that's all right mate.

Matt Legge:

We never talk about our product.

Mason:

I want to talk about watermelon seed protein, because I was looking at, not that I was thinking, I was like, grabbing a protein. I'm like, "okay, cool, I've done plant-based protein before," and I was like, "pumpkin seed protein. Awesome." Pumpkin seeds it is one of my favourite. I think it's one of the best things ever. I'm doing pumpkin seed like butter.

James Newbury:

Oh yum.

Mason:

The green.

Matt Legge:

I can't find the old man, they used to just roast them with the nice salty stuff and he used to crack them like pistachios and eat the stuff out of the inside, I can't find them anymore.

Mason:

Local brand, Cye, who you met this morning, went for a while, and they had the tamari almonds as well?

Matt Legge:

Yeah, yeah. I can't find them.

Mason:

We're going to put it in the show notes. When you're listening to this guys, we'll just Cye-

James Newbury:

I feel like I'm missing out, I don't know what you guys-

Mason:

You don't know tamari almonds? Or the massala cashews?

James Newbury:

No.

Matt Legge:

Oh no, they're delicious. But no, the pumpkin seeds, they used to roast them and salt them up like a pistachio, where you crack it and you pull out the seed inside and it was nice.

James Newbury:

Oh, okay.

Matt Legge:

It was pepitas, but it could be yours.

James Newbury:

Yeah, let's go.

Matt Legge:

Or yours.

Mason:

A classic vegan joke. Oh, did you ever hear about that Australian vegan? He eats, roots, shoots and leaves.

Matt Legge:

That was my old nickname, the Wombat.

Mason:

No, that's right. That's an old one, that's like why did the chicken cross the road stuff. I mean, pea protein isolate. I still really love the idea of getting to just some, I need to get this charge, this things bad, like brown rice bad. I'm in that good and bad with things still, and with anything that had ideology around it. And so that's my mission. But I love to tell the pea protein, but watermelon seed protein, I don't know why, it gets me frisky reading that because I've never ever even heard of it.

Matt Legge:

Well, it's got about 35% more leucine than beef. So where we looked at needing to spike up, the leucine a little bit low in the plant material, so we can jack up the leucine through watermelon seed, it was the sneakiest way of doing it. Fixes up the amino profile, also contains more of the tryptophan and the other bits that were missing out of a lot of the plants.

Mason:

Now you've done the tests of particular microbiomes. How do people get greater nuance and understanding of when's the perfect time and dose to have the protein versus when it would be a time to back off and have another product, based on where their microbiomes at?

Matt Legge:

Yeah. So the funny thing is it's also depending on why you're taking the protein. So for some people they need it, just because they want to have that extra amino acids for muscle regeneration and repair. So when they use that protein before a workout or something like that, before a big-

Matt Legge:

They use that protein before a workout or something like that, before lots of exercise. The protein basically gets sacrificed as a source of fuel and thereby has a muscle-sparing effect. If they want to focus on your burning and you want to deplete everything through your training, then a lot of those people will have the protein post-training, to replenish and provide the amino acids for more of that regeneration and repair. Most people are using the protein, though, just as a snack, as a carrier for their smoothies that I put... You have your smoothie in the morning. It's a good way to load up every other bit of nutrients and everything that you want to put in. Throw your mushrooms and everything in and with your morning smoothie. A lot of people are having it as snacks. A lot of people having it as baking, just ways of actually incorporating a little bit more protein into their lifestyle. Pretty much everyone's using it differently.

James Newbury:

For me, I'll use it across a broad spectrum of ways. I'll chuck it in a morning oat bowl at 10:00 or 11 o'clock, but I'll also chuck it in a smoothie, too. Then I'll also chuck it in a pancake at night if I want a nice sweet treat at the end of the day. Just to make sure that I am hitting the requirements I need throughout the day. I eat a broad spectrum of food. My aim of the game every week is to eat 40 different plants a week. That's the only metric that I hold true. The rest of it is intuitive. I just know that I wanted a protein that made me not feel upset in the stomach, it was nice tasting, and that I could share with people and be proud of. That's pretty much how we put it in. For me, I use it across broad spectrum of ways, and we would like to see how many other ways it could be done. We actually have a lot of people trying it in different baking recipes, breads, and banana breads, and even doing overnight wheatbix.

Matt Legge:

I still love milkshakes. I could never have one. So my whole motivation behind the protein is basically to make milkshakes and then ultimately ice cream.

James Newbury:

Then if you are training, this is just a really good way to bump up your daily intake of protein with a very easy and convenient way to do it without stressing you out about where I'm going to find the next... Either if you're eating fish or chicken or beef or the next block of tofu or tempeh or pintos, whatever it may be.

Mason:

Hell yeah.

Matt Legge:

The next line of products that I'm fired up for too, because when people talk about, oh, we need to fortify our diet with vitamins and minerals because our food's lacking.

Mason:

That's what the Lord Kellogg's was doing for us because they left us fortifying our cereals.

Matt Legge:

Nice guy. Now they're saying we need to fortify with fibre. So they've covered the vitamins, the minerals, they've covered the fibre, but it's these fresh phytonutrients, these polyphenols and that sort of stuff that we are lacking. We're also lacking dirt. So I'm really looking at these next line of products. So the stuff that I know that we are lacking from our foods that I want to be able to supplement my diet with, not because I'm a bad healthy person or something, I can't do everything wrong, but it's actually, I try really hard to do things right. Our food has changed. I can buy organic seedless grapes. I can buy organic seedless watermelons and I'm sitting there going. This is weird. So I couldn't buy food. And then I remember when I used to be young, we used to eat these apples and then if I tried to have a drink of water after the apple, my whole mouth was so dry from all the astringency in there. Everything used to be different. The grapes used to have multiple seeds in them, thick skins. Everything's kind of changed so much.

Mason:

I was just kicking our thick skin. We call them hubba bubba Grapes. They're so seedy. We got them from that, our friend's property I was telling you about. And they're just full of it, whatever is it is. That energy.

Matt Legge:

Yeah.

Mason:

That, on apples, just before we go on, I don't know why I brought up David Wolf. I'm talk about David Wolf in years, for my own reasons, but he was showing pictures of having a focus on not just growing wild foods, but just growing, cultivating foods. Then he was about to do a pigment book, but he was growing these apples and the pigment was piercing the flesh. Because it was just so rich in the pigments of the skin and putting that focus back in pigment. That's where I know you guys have heavily, I mean everything in terms of 40 different plants and that diversity of different types of what everything, phytonutrients especially, that broad spectrum and even just going and exploring what are the reds and what are the yellows and where does quercetin sit? And then you can go into the blues and the phycosidens and that kind of thing. But that 40 and 60 and being able to come out of that reductionism and then just land in foods that are closer to original, they're astringent or their whatever they pigment needs them to be, flavour wise.

Matt Legge:

Yeah.

Mason:

And what a base.

James Newbury:

And then that kind of adds to the flair of the protein, which is probably, we have to say we love our protein, but in terms of it being cool and funky, we're really fired about what's to come. But like Matt said, we're looking to add as many phytonutrients and phytochemicals as we possibly can into the diet. But Matt has said many, many times before, and I love the phrase is, if you've got a really good diet and bad guts, the guts are going to hijack the good food every day of the week, which is why we've created the gut matrix, and it's basically helping us to fortify the gut and make it as diverse as we possibly can, but also adding in a lot of the things that our gut may not be able to make. So that's the cool thing that Matt's kind of come up with. So adding in what we've got coming with what we already previously have and what we have in the future, it's a combination. It's pretty freaking functional.

Matt Legge:

And also, time's going to pass anyway and we're the sum of our consistent actions. And so you want to know if we are giving something for someone to use regularly, that over time they're going to be getting better and better. So we want to be able to seed through these ideas, seed through these concepts, but actually trickle in things that they can take long term. Knowing that over time and they're not going to come back saying, oh, I've been taking that thing for too long now, I've got to stop. It's actually the other way. I mean, the longer you take it, the better. We want to go through and work on those sort of processes.

Mason:

It's funny having a company like this that's synergistic and dynamic even between the products, because you don't start with, because you're not looking at say, a metric that's really easy to, you know, don't have a classic start with this product and then you go to this more expensive product and then you go to this major product. So the client journey isn't really defined, it just bounces all over the places.

James Newbury:

Matt....

Matt Legge:

Then we formulate for protocols is the other problem. So we don't go through and go, we don't have a product that's a one stop shop because we understand that you're going to need to cycle through some of these products as your priorities change, but we also know that you want to stack a couple of these things together. So I'm not going to go and hit the Google keyword points that you need to see for the maximal dose in each one of those things because I want you to be able to stack them together and use it properly. Take control of your own health, bring things in, bring things out, but without having to make a choice. I can't take that plus this because they're sharing ingredients all at maximal dose to get the maximal Google ranking. You know what I mean?

Mason:

So I know friends who have businesses and that's their joy, finding those dynamic and I'm like, awesome. You do that over there.

Matt Legge:

We don't play the numbers game. We don't play numbers game in regards to business. We don't play the numbers game in regards to our ingredient list, just trying to make sure we got the highest numbers compared to everyone else. We make sure they get the right numbers. Make sure you're getting the right dose for what our intended purpose is. Not just trying to beat the competition by saying ours are stronger yet cheaper and better quality.

Mason:

Yeah, I mean that's the constitution of businesses like ours. The numbers need to find their sweet spot in order to lead to the impact. I'm curious with so many people taking away, anyone winning and everyone gets a part... Do you hear rugby league? Do you hear they're taking away winners in rugby league from up until, I don't know, man, I'm going to guess now it's up until 14 or something like that.

James Newbury:

Well, if you'll take a look...

Mason:

You guys are participating in having a supplement. You get a participation award.

James Newbury:

That is funny. Also, Matt said, you know what, we are just having a crack and therefore we are giving ourselves an award.

Mason:

Oh, I love it. You're all winners.

James Newbury:

We're all winners.

Matt Legge:

No, that's us. We're having a crack. We're pretty slow into the plant protein market. So we're having a go to. Gave ourselves a participation award.

Mason:

Oh, I love this.

James Newbury:

And we're probably give us ourselves an award on every product we do just because we're giving ourselves a pat on the back because we deserve it.

Matt (01:17:25):

Yeah.

Mason:

Well, you do.

James Newbury:

Well, we try harder is the thing that we came up with at the start. We just, I don't know, try harder.

Matt (01:17:31):

Now we've got some cool code of ethics. I'm having more fun building up our rules of Phyba viber our rule set than any other part of our company structure. It's like choose your attitude, make someone's day every day. Play, kick it to me. They were just lining all these things. Yeet, sleep, repeat.

Mason:

Oh yeah.

Matt (01:17:50):

Yeah.

Mason:

That was yeet you heard everybody.

Matt Legge:

Yeah. Yeet.

James Newbury:

Yeah. You'll hear more about it.

Matt Legge:

You'll hear a lot more about yeet.

Mason:

Yeah, that's under wraps at the moment.

Matt Legge:

Ah, no. Wait, yes or no.

Mason:

No, let's wait. That'll be exciting for another podcast.

Matt Legge:

Yeet's just energy. Yeah, we'll save it.

Mason:

Yeah. We'll save it.

Matt Legge:

We're going to work on cellular energy. That's our CEO. Cellular energy optimization.

James Newbury:

Yeah. What you're talking about in those rules, we're talking about that definition of the membrane and then once you step over this threshold and you come into this environment, you're in our environment or you're in Phyba's environment. You can't just do whatever you want.

Matt Legge:

Yeah. You question everything now. So for example, this yeet thing, where it came from was we were talking. When we first met, James said it right at the start. We were talking about bicarb because I was curious about everyone taking bicap. How the hell can you get bicap to work when you've got to dose it up so regularly just to get it past your stomach acid? I said, it's rubbish. How can you get a good performance when you sleep, when you can't sleep or night because you got to get up and take bicarb every hour, which is what the science says you got to do to make it work or IV. This is not healthy way to do it.

(01:18:58)

Then my other question is why are we always talking about lactic acid being the fatigue? Why are we talking about the aerobic threshold being the point at which you hit fatigue? When we are all, footy players, we used to spend this whole time warming up before a game to get to the lactate threshold. When he's an athlete, he gets to a point of acidity before he can actually, his pain goes and he can hit his straps. Why are we talking about this point of fatigue when it seems to be the point at which we start to perform?

(01:19:24)

So then we started questioning everything that we ever thought we knew about fatigue and waste and going, hang on. Then we even sat down with Mike Todorvic from a Griffith University, head lecturer, anatomy, physiology going, hey, we've got some questions around lactic acid that don't seem to be in the textbooks. Are we crazy? It seems like everything from the textbooks around lactic acid comes from yogurt.

Mason:

From your place?

Matt Legge:

Yeah. And then he is come through and going, no, you're right. Actually, it's a full redox system. We can actually utilise these sources. There's more efficient ways of making energy. It just hasn't hit the textbooks yet. All of our data was correct. We've worked out that lactic acid bacteria that coat our gut membranes, recycle lactic acid, pump it back in as pyruvate. If you don't have the right gut bugs. That's why athletes guts go terrible. We are working out all this stuff, these epiphanies, bang, bang, bang. Now we worked out mitochondrial biogenesis, how to maintain gut wall, how to use short chain fatty acids as a preferred source of fuel to maintain gut health while exercising so you can actually perform better physically, mentally, blew our minds.

(01:20:23)

We realised that everything we thought we knew, where everyone was going down a pathway of buffering acid, all sort of stuff. We like, no man, let's use this. Let's recycle it. We got a turbo on our engine now. We're taking the incomplete fuel, driving it back in, maximising energy and you feel so different. That genuine cellular energy feels so different to being buzzed.

Mason:

You're yeeting all the time perfectly.

Matt Legge:

Yeah, yeah. The yeet spot.

Mason:

Yeah. I'm trying to absorb all of that. I know sometimes people, it's often like, no, that's what people say to me. They're like, yeah, you just said a lot of things and I can feel the energy of it. I know it's not often I get to do it too. But what I do when you just said the difference between that charge is I remember that, I remember that happening with mineral complexes a lot of the time and everyone was just going, yeah, this is just straight cellular energy. And you can feel it, it was like, you could feel that it was just, there was something stimulating and it wasn't actually landing long term because a dependency would, and I think that's the difference. I think a rule of, I would assume, I'm going to project onto you. If your organisation and your products is it's not designed to form a dependency and it can't form a dependency. And I imagine likewise, you would have an organisational structure that has a rule that we can't, everyone needs to be standing alone and forming it. You know? Can't have a dependency on an idea. You need to be able to question an idea. And that's the one...

Matt Legge:

And that's the one question.

Mason:

Yeah.

Matt Legge:

Do we accept that? That we'll be asking those questions. You can't take offence to those sort of things. You have to be open to it.

Mason:

Yeah.

Mason:

Yeah. That kind of shows you got a flabby approach to life and you're on loose foundations if that pushes you over. Don't be going in there. I'm probably there in some areas. I'm probably not ready to get challenged in some areas right now. We've all got them.

(01:22:11)

And someone messaged me, someone who wanted to make me feel bad. They sent me a quote from the Tao Te Ching the other day, pretty much as a reason to show that I'm the kind of leader that isn't in the Tao Te Ching quote that they sent me, that I'm someone that they despised. And I'm like, you think that I think I'm the epitome of expression of the Tao Te Ching and that Lao Tzu is just talking about me in a few thousand.... Like, no, I'm on the field dragging myself through my own shit as I go along as well. And it's really messy.

(01:22:44)

So I mean, that's the fun thing. And it's probably the hardest thing around setting up, as you said. I mean, if I'm calling it out classic, the membrane. The rules. The rules and the policies and the things that are not off the shelf, but actually describing what the real muse and what the real idea demands in order to make it an environment where it's like, that it's native too. It's like an indigenous habitat that you're creating for that source idea.

(01:23:11)

But just because it's there, it's there regulating us as well. The founders and CEOs aren't just all of a sudden enlightened gurus that are able to be perfectly in line with the constitution. They're there to regulate us as well. And help us not forget. When you step into this arena, get over yourself. Even if it's in 20 years from now, you step back into this arena I don't care how much you've changed, you step back into this space. Yeah, love it.

Matt Legge:

Yeah. Let alone thinking that you're supposed to abide by some cultural belief system from thousands of years ago, isolated to within one region with particular rules and everything like that, that we are not living in a totally different world now surrounded by electromagnetic radiation with everything migrating, all the plants mutated. Some of the things that we used to do is a big problem that I have with things like homeopathics and stuff like that. We used to use these homeopathics, very potent drops with these frequencies. I don't think these things have the power to even touch the sides now when we're surrounded by so much frequencies and everything like that.

(01:24:11)

So there's those belief systems. Herbs have changed. We know how much food changes. So the herbs have changed too significantly. The herbs that we used to have access, the weeds and that sort of stuff that we used to have, they've all changed. So we might need to change some of the rules that we've followed for thousands of years to kind of keep up to date with the world changing. The philosophy, that could stay the same, but we might need to adapt some of the ingredients, some of the doses, some of the techniques, some of the extraction stuff. Our microbiome can adapt within a day.

(01:24:44)

So if we think that thousands of years later, our guts are exactly the same as they were when you were from China, for example, where all your ancestors were from China, nothing else was there. We're very isolated. There was nowhere near as much travelling. You think you're microbiome today when you are living in Australia, even if you're full 100% Chinese or something like, you would have a totally different makeup. You would respond differently to the herbal formulas that come out of the Emperor's Garden book today.

(01:25:11)

Which is why what you are doing is actually really impressive because you're breaking the mould. You're going back going, yeah, I respect all those traditions. I respect all this sort of stuff. However, it's a different world. We're a different people. I'm Mason. I'm here doing this today. This is my version of it, and this is the importance of it. Because when we talk about being a vehicle for these ideas coming out, this is what I'm talking about is taking and learning and respecting and then going, Hey, there's something else we could probably add to this. Doesn't mean that stuff was wrong, it was perfect and right for that time and the place, but we are not in the same time and place.

(01:25:48)

What we've learned about microbiome, we've sharing microbiome in this room now, just shedding off our aura, our pheromones. All this sort of stuff's determined by a cloud of microbes and that sort of stuff that's actually emitted from our body where we're sharing them. Just by being in this process, we're going to be slightly different.

Mason:

Did you just call it a bro-cess?

Matt Legge:

A process. It should be. I don't intend to, but that's a t-shirt. A bromance and a bro-cess will come from it.

Mason:

We're in a bro-cess together.

James Newbury:

We are sharing microbiomes.

Matt Legge:

Isn't it kind of cute? Isn't it?

Mason:

It's very cute. All right. Yeah. Like hell yeah. Hell yeah, man. Before, I mean, I reckon we should wrap it up soon.

Matt (01:26:32):

Yeah.

Mason:

I think that's enough. That was...

James Newbury:

I think we did it.

James Newbury:

I think did it. Whatever it was to be done, we did it.

Matt Legge:

We did a thing.

Mason:

Yeah. I don't have anything else to, that was just... In terms of doing something new and there's something new and adapting and finding. There's somewhere in the past because there's that story, our microbial story. Well, you imagine what's going to happen when they can start the version of carbon dating what's in the microbiome. And you can see now this is a really new thing coming up. Now it might become constitutional, although it might just be an adaptation stage. These things we didn't think were that important, but they've been in the gut for thousands of years. It's not over here. It's not, like that's already happening I know. But when you start tracking that ancestral journey, because then you can be like, yeah, I am doing something new. But I can also track back to the shoulders of the giants that I'm standing on as well.

(01:27:42)

And I think that's for me because yeah, I'm technically going against, or it's actually modern TCM, but a lot a school that came like 400 AD. But if I go back a little bit further to 2000 years ago, there's like a place that I'm just within a pattern. Even though it seems new to a lot of people and scallywag to a lot of people, I can get back and I can feel that continuity and that pattern back there. And I feel like it's just having the balls to break out for a while and follow that new idea and then come back and go get some navigation and connection to the lineage or whatever that be, and off we go again.

(01:28:19)

So hell yeah, man. I love both of you so much. When you talk about cellular regeneration, that gives me lots of cool ideas and things. I think it'd be fun to chat about.

James Newbury:

Oh yeah, 100%. So much good stuff.

Mason:

There's so much good stuff. Especially when you've got the distinction between stimulation and actual regeneration and the constitutional building of that whole structure, is that you're right. The difference is incredible.

James Newbury:

I know. We can't wait to start playing around with putting some of the cool things that you've got sitting behind you in conjunction with what we've got cranking along. I think they go pretty hand in hand, kind of like this conversation's been pretty synergistic. I reckon some of those would go really well combined with some of the things we got in the works.

Matt Legge:

100%.

Mason:

So should we go make some videos now?

James Newbury:

Yeah.

Mason:

And it's 11:11. That's beautiful.

James Newbury:

Let's make a smoothie.

Mason:

Making smoothies, websites, Instagrams.

James Newbury:

They can follow, if they want to check out Phyba. It's just at Phyba Sport with a P-H-Y-B-A Sport. And they can follow Legge. Legge leg.

Matt Legge:

Oh yeah?

James Newbury:

Legge leg.

Matt Legge:

You never tell people that.

Mason:

Do you have a blog or anything? Or you run podcast?

Matt (01:29:29):

Oh, I've got...

Mason:

Or just the podcast?

Matt Legge:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually supposed to. mattlegge.com.

Mason:

Yeah.

Matt Legge:

Just go there and you'll find most of my updates.

Mason:

L-E-G-G-E?

Matt Legge:

Yeah. Yeah. L-E-G-G-E. Yep. L-E-G-G-E. Yeah.

James Newbury:

And then they could follow me.

Matt Legge:

You know how to spell my name then.

James Newbury:

Yeah. They could follow me at James Newbury. That's it.

Mason:

Yeah, they can.

James Newbury:

Yeah.

Mason:

Thanks, guys.

James Newbury:

Pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Mason:

Pleasure.